tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22925401.post1220591759977598368..comments2023-08-11T08:21:09.562-06:00Comments on A Very Remote Period Indeed: Prehistoric ballistics, or Mythbusters meets archaeologyJulien Riel-Salvatorehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05344338385695383003noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22925401.post-2248229735083548342012-12-24T11:41:02.558-07:002012-12-24T11:41:02.558-07:00i just watched this episode and would like to tell...i just watched this episode and would like to tell the guys of mythbusters could have made a few more ranged testing, they only saw it through the viewpoint of hunting were a direct shot is more used, but they forgot to see that arrows were used on wars as wells, and on wars the ballistic shot was more used than the direct straight shot, so on a ballistic shot a stone point would make it easier Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22925401.post-79579619892217108992012-12-24T11:37:45.320-07:002012-12-24T11:37:45.320-07:00i just watched this episode and would like to tell...i just watched this episode and would like to tell the guys of mythbusters could have made a few more ranged testing, they only saw it through the viewpoint of hunting were a direct shot is more used, but they forgot to see that arrows were used on wars as wells, and on wars the ballistic shot was more used than the direct straight shot, so on a ballistic shot a stone point would make it easier Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22925401.post-23694352413975414622012-11-14T23:24:52.564-07:002012-11-14T23:24:52.564-07:00We just did a Video Busting your myth of the Ancie...We just did a Video Busting your myth of the Ancient arrows on season 6 episode 5 Viewers Special 2 please check it out on youtube. MythBusters Ancient Arrows Busted By Thrand and Eldgrimr.thrandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08127250394952723158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22925401.post-36550503029442460322010-02-13T17:28:59.380-07:002010-02-13T17:28:59.380-07:00otzi (this thread is indeed compelling and product...otzi (this thread is indeed compelling and productive) tells a thing, that is noted here once casually, with the suggestion of debris use. 'points doubling as knives'.<br />what otzi showed is they carried (!) amazingly small quantities of stone, in amazingly small implements. since u need to carry arrows for a bow anyways, perhaps that was enough motivation. to carry less.<br />(otzis &#onixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03063983314231972946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22925401.post-15874930662335694482010-01-28T23:03:51.269-07:002010-01-28T23:03:51.269-07:00Jason -
increasingly blood loss to exhaust wounded...Jason -<br />increasingly blood loss to exhaust wounded prey would certainly have been an important consideration, and is likely to have played a role in the selection of stone vs. wood points overall.<br /><br />Tom -<br />thanks for the tip, I'll definitely have to check it out!Julien Riel-Salvatorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05344338385695383003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22925401.post-88010691694322927802010-01-28T14:04:11.039-07:002010-01-28T14:04:11.039-07:00I suggest you visit the website of the magazine &#...I suggest you visit the website of the magazine 'Primitive Archer'. They have years of discussion on just these sorts of issues, and the forum members tend to be the sort of people who try out their theories. Plenty of both archers and knappers in that group.Tom Bridgelandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13098048586042365606noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22925401.post-8573901144998117712010-01-17T17:09:24.137-07:002010-01-17T17:09:24.137-07:00I think it is important to remember than even anim...I think it is important to remember than even animals shot with modern firearms rarely just drop dead and often travel long distances before expiring. The purpose of a point is obviously to allow maximum penetration. The sharp edges of a stone tip will now start to lacerate the surrounding tissue with each movement the animal makes, much more so than a simple wood tip would. The massively Jason Bagleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22925401.post-87985031415769146792010-01-16T13:49:59.671-07:002010-01-16T13:49:59.671-07:00Paul -
good observation. In fact, many prehistori...Paul - <br />good observation. In fact, many prehistoric points appear to have doubles as knives... it could be that wooden points would have been too functionally specific in certain contexts, and that this need for a polyvalent tools (especially for highly mobile groups) would have made the extra time and effort investment in producing stone tips more worthwhile.Julien Riel-Salvatorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05344338385695383003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22925401.post-24699145563543552982010-01-16T07:29:49.400-07:002010-01-16T07:29:49.400-07:00Stone "knives" created using the same fl...Stone "knives" created using the same flaking methods as with spear points were a necessity for skinning and gutting the prey. Could be that the stone spear points were used simply because they were produced from waste material created when making the knives.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16471048347290152549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22925401.post-72412284034694433622010-01-15T20:29:43.188-07:002010-01-15T20:29:43.188-07:00amphiox -
also a very interesting observation... I...amphiox -<br />also a very interesting observation... I suppose this could be tracked archaeologically using some kind of cultural phylogenetic approach amplified by a consideration of raw materials as well as lithic reduction traditions. Of course, the aerodynamics of arrowheads are somewhat different from those of thrusting and hand-cast spears, as well as from those of darts, so these would Julien Riel-Salvatorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05344338385695383003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22925401.post-75428620909039653282010-01-15T20:24:27.904-07:002010-01-15T20:24:27.904-07:00Sol -
that's an interesting question. The expe...Sol -<br />that's an interesting question. The experiment doesn't seem to have really considered this variable, largely because it wasn't designed to do so. As I said in an earlier comment, I think this experiment is a good first step to understand the ballistic properties of various types of projectile points. But resistance to internal structures, including bones, would certainly beJulien Riel-Salvatorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05344338385695383003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22925401.post-33897574297990902602010-01-15T17:56:09.115-07:002010-01-15T17:56:09.115-07:00I think it is in fact important to know if the res...I think it is in fact important to know if the results would be the same for thrown spears/javelins and thrusting spears.<br /><br />Because thrusting and throwing spears were invented long before bows and arrows, then if a stone tip for these weapons were much more effective than a merely sharpened tip, then it could well be that a tradition developed around afixing a stone tip to your amphioxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22925401.post-36558163571300801292010-01-15T16:32:31.576-07:002010-01-15T16:32:31.576-07:00How about non-flesh wounds? This just occurred to ...How about non-flesh wounds? This just occurred to me, but given that the arrows in the study could penetrate the ballistics gel torso (which never fails to illicit hoots and holloers from the Mythbusters team), are arrows capable of breaking or at least harming bone, or at least some of the tougher parts of the body, like cartilage (for example, the floating ribs, which I imagine if penetrated Solhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01670983413084777695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22925401.post-70809703386157330222010-01-15T16:05:11.667-07:002010-01-15T16:05:11.667-07:00Jason -
the paper presents some results based on p...Jason -<br />the paper presents some results based on penetration in the target in the absence of hide. Basically, the tendency for stone-tipped arrows to penetrate slightly deeper than wooden ones holds, with the authors even stating that "both types types of points in some tests managed to penetrate the entire thickness of the ballistics gel torso" (Waguespack et al. 2009: 794). BasedJulien Riel-Salvatorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05344338385695383003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22925401.post-42738851528797315272010-01-15T15:56:11.942-07:002010-01-15T15:56:11.942-07:00John -
you make an interesting observation about ...John - <br />you make an interesting observation about bloodletting and the size of cuts made by stone points, some of which echo Ellis' arguments. As I mentioned in my response to Sol's comment, the paper really seems geared more towards some of the other (largely untested) assumptions about what else might make stone a better material for point manufacture. I think it's a first stepJulien Riel-Salvatorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05344338385695383003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22925401.post-72288509571191195902010-01-15T15:51:35.829-07:002010-01-15T15:51:35.829-07:00Sol -
you make some good points (ha!). From the li...Sol -<br />you make some good points (ha!). From the literature I'm familiar with, poison was usually applied to organic (mostly bone) projectile points designed to detach from the shaft to which they were bound. In this case, binding would be a secondary consideration and if poisonous resins were used, their effectiveness might be somewhat impaired by the fact that they were often treated byJulien Riel-Salvatorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05344338385695383003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22925401.post-22876149970365131272010-01-15T15:40:33.183-07:002010-01-15T15:40:33.183-07:00I wonder about instances when it is used against t...I wonder about instances when it is used against targets without tough hides, like other people. Perhaps the stone is better at killing people rather than animals.Jason Woertinkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11155634509723120813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22925401.post-53537125319720702472010-01-15T14:57:07.723-07:002010-01-15T14:57:07.723-07:00I had always understood the functional explanation...I had always understood the functional explanation to be twofold: <br /><br />1. The same as for modern bowhunters who use wide razor points instead of small target points: bloodletting. <br /><br />2. The probability that a wooden projectile will pull out as the animal runs away, versus a stone which may break off and remain to make the wound more severe. <br /><br />The paper discusses number 1John Hawkshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17027862713126904206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22925401.post-66203418397322925442010-01-15T14:44:43.838-07:002010-01-15T14:44:43.838-07:00I don't know if it's necessary to immediat...I don't know if it's necessary to immediately jump to the "non-functional"/"prestige" explanation in this case. I can think of a few possible explanations to justify the effectiveness of stone-tipped projectiles over sharpened wood (though none of these are backed up by anything more than "common sense," which as we see here is the reason for the problem in Solhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01670983413084777695noreply@blogger.com